Zach sits down with the host of the Trill MBA Show, Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, in this special crossover centered around respectability politics. They discuss the importance of encouraging folks to embrace their full selves, noting that only in being your most authentic self can you really be your best at work.




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https://trillmba.com/episodes/




Righteous Discontent on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Discontent-Movement-Baptist-1880-1920/dp/0674769783




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TRANSCRIPT

Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and listen, we have a really special episode. We have a special--and I do mean special--co-host with us today. Please introduce yourself.




Felicia: What's up, Living Corporate family? [record scratch]




Zach: [?].




Felicia: I can't help it. This is Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, A.K.A. the truest MBA you will ever know, and I am the creator, executive producer, and host of the Trill MBA podcast, where my goal is to help you survive and thrive in Corporate America by giving you the truth and being as real as only I can be. So I am super excited to be here with you today, Zach, because I love Living Corporate. I love everything you guys stand for. I love the content you guys are putting out for the people, and so thank you for this opportunity to hang out with you and talk that talk today.




Zach: Nah. Definitely the privilege is ours, and we definitely love Trill MBA. You do great content. It was interesting, 'cause in our research trying to figure out, okay, who's doing what it is that we're trying to do, who's out here really trying to have honest, courageous discussions about non-majority experiences in a--in a workplace, and Trill MBA was really, like, the only podcast that we saw that was really focused on that, and it's interesting because we actually had a conversation, like, internally about even, like, progressing and, like, moving forward with the Living Corporate platform, because we wanted to understand if we needed to be here, right? But over time I think what we realized is, like, there's definitely more than enough space for any voices that are aiming to do this, and the fact of the matter is if I look across the entire podcast landscape and I can only see one, then, I mean, that probably means, you know, it needs a little bit more.




Felicia: Yeah. We need all different perspectives, 'cause here's the thing. As black people, we are not a monolith. Like, what goes for one black person doesn't go for the other. Hey, guess what? Not all black folks are Christian. Not all black folks are Baptists, you know? You know, like, we're not all the same, but the problem is the media portrays us as that one black friend or that crackhead or that baby momma, and that's what it's been until recently, right?




Zach: Until recently, that's true.




Felicia: And so we have these stereotypes that we need to fight, and the only way to do that is for many more of us to tell our stories, you know, be real about what's happening to us in different aspects of our lives in corporate spaces. That's just one aspect of, God, so many.




Zach: No, that's super true, and I think it's interesting. Even the way that, like, you're framing this, in which I agree, is--I think, like, our vibes are really different, right? Like, our core messages are the same, but our vibes are different. So, like, Trill MBA, you know, y'all are--correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is y'all have been focused on, like, the very visceral experiences of black folks and how to really shed off the BS and really be your full selves at work. Now, Living Corporate, we aim to do the same thing, but we're not just focused on black folks and the framing and the tone in which we take around certain topics are a little bit different, and one could even say it's almost like an exercise in respectability politics in the way that we go about handling our content.




Felicia: Yes, which is what we're gonna talk about today, and--




Zach: Segue king.




Felicia: [laughs] Well, the thing is also, like, I'm very focused on black women, because that's what I know and that's what I understand, and the great thing is a lot of the things that happen to black women in corporate also happen to other non-white males in corporate, but I want to pick out the nuances for black women. So for example, white women in the workplace, they get up in the morning, they'll look in the mirror, and their concern may be, "Okay, does this skirt fit too tight? Because I don't want to draw negative attention or derail my career because I'm coming off too sexy at work," whereas black women look in the mirror and say, "Okay, do I wear my natural hair today, or do I need to put this heat on it and damage it one more again? What meetings I got today?" So it's the same experience in the root of oppression. It just shows itself differently, and that's what I want to bring to the forefront.




Zach: It's more than appreciated and needed, but yeah, you're right. We're talking today about respectability politics, and for those--'cause we haven't really said this yet, but we're gonna say it now. So this is, like, a two-parter, y'all. So we're gonna have part one on the Living Corporate side, and then we're gonna have part two on the Trill MBA side. But we just want to kind of give some context in terms of just what it is that we're talking about. So I want to go ahead and give a quick definition of respectability politics, and it's interesting 'cause when you look up respectability politics--like, you, like, Google it, right? So there's a Wikipedia entry, and then there's a couple of, like, posts on Medium, and there's also an article on The Root, but there isn't, like, a super historical breakdown, like, within The New York Times or the Washington Post or even, like, The Atlantic. Like, it's not--it's not necessarily something that we just talk about and really explore it in-depth in the same ways as we have other, like, hot terms, hot button terms, but I do want to talk a little bit about it. So the term "politics of respectability"--I'm reading from the Wiki, y'all, so don't judge me. Ultimately, when you--when you look at the history of respectability politics, it really actually started from the efforts of black women aiming to distance themselves from the negative stereotypes that came with being black in their communities, and it aims to control or really set the terms of behavior to make sure that your behavior kind of adheres to norms, and those norms are typically established by the majority. Stereotypes typically, like, around, like, us being lazy or dumb or violent or immoral, and so a lot of times when you think about, like, respectability politics, think about the difference between Carlton and Will on The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, right? So, like, Carlton was, like, very quote-unquote articulate. He dressed--he did not, you know, sag his pants. He was a respectable guy. He was very intelligent, whereas Will was--he'd sag his pants, he'd laugh, he'd joke. He'd be all loud, you know what I mean? He was--he dated a lot. So, you know, he was not monogamous at all, and so, you know, that's where you see--you definitely see, like, a dichotomy there. And then it says--again, y'all, I'm reading off the Wiki. That's, like, kind of some of the background, but I'm also gonna put the other links in here around some of the other posts that we found, some of the other research that we found. There are research studies that associate part of the high burden of mental health disease for black Americans on assimilationist behaviors. So what does that mean? So the idea or the activity of us aiming to "act white," quote-unquote, puts a mental strain on us, right? Like, the idea that we need to adhere and just, like, behave in a certain way all the time, and that self-policing, that active self-policing, is mentally draining. Researchers Hedwig Lee and Margaret Takako Hicken argue further conversations about respectability politics should always consider the challenge of negotiating every day social spaces as a black American and how this impacts mental health. And then so really though if you want to--if you want to really read more on the origins of respectability politics, check out the book Righteous Discontent: The Women's Movement in the Black Baptist Church, 188-1920, written by Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham. And that's where the term was really coined and created, and it really, again, was to describe the social and political changes in the black community during this time. So this was transitioning from slavery. There was a movement that originated in the black church to really, like, almost reform the black image. This black image was one that was created through oppression, but it was the idea of having the right types of behaviors to be accepted as a functioning member of society. And you see that. Again, like, when you--I remember when I grew up, you know, when I was a little kid, there would be other black people who would be like, you know, "Y'all need to stop acting so black. Y'all need to act white." Right? Or if you're hanging out with your friends, your black friends, they'd be like, "You acting white," if you happen to do well in school or speak well or just reject--like, just reject slang or--it's like, "Oh, you actin' white." It's like, "I'm not acting white. I'm just--" I'm not acting white. Like, that is super problematic, but that's the idea of respectability politics. And then, like--look, so here you go. So y'all want another example? I'm about to say a bunch of buzzwords today. Black Lives Matter. So the Black Lives Matter movement is an example of a movement against respectability politics. The movement was motivated by the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. So we know the story of an unarmed teenager shot by a neighbor. In line with the growth of the