Joichi "Joi" Ito, the director of the MIT Media Lab, talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about engineers who over-simplify the world's problems, the Media Lab's role in "surveillance capitalism," and why the values of the tech world will shift from within. In this episode: Ito's background and what the Media Lab does; techno-utopianism and the early days of the internet; how Ito got to MIT; computers implanted in the human body; Shoshana Zuboff and "surveillance capitalism"; the gap between technology and the law; why we're not living in a simulation; what’s missing from the AI discourse; the problem with how tech solves problems; the dangers of bad policy; and the subordination of liberal arts at schools like MIT.