How do we learn about application security? Carl and Richard talk to Tanya Janca about her book 'Alice and Bob Learn Application Security.' Tanya talks about bringing positive conversations around security, enabling people to get work done while being secure. Software developers are now targets for the black hats because they often have super-user accounts and aren't following security practices as closely as others. Building secure software means developing it in a secure context - it takes practice, but is the best way to succeed in making secure software!