In this special episode, Liz Sweigart sits down with Noah, a Latinx trans man, who brings us an incredible story of survivorship. He graciously shares the variety of experiences he's had over time and talks about how his identity over the years has impacted and influenced his family.




TRANSCRIPT

Ade: What's up, y'all? Welcome back to Living Corporate. My name is Ade. So today, this conversation is going to be between Liz and Noah. We beg your patience - the audio quality is not the greatest, but it is an incredibly important conversation, and we hope you give it a listen. The conversation today is between Liz, who many of you are familiar with, and Noah, who is a Latinx trans man, and Noah spends some time exploring his different experiences over time, and Liz has a great conversation with Noah about what it means to be a first-gen trans man as, you know, he did not originally begin his interactions in corporate spaces as simply a queer person. His transition followed the course of his career. His transition happened concurrently with his career. It's an important conversation. I think it's an interesting one to listen in on, and I think it's also important for anyone who identifies as an ally to understand what life is like and what it means to exist at all of these different intersectionalities or all of these different intersections of identity and how that might affect your work experience. In particular, Noah illustrates his point with several anecdotes about his experience in the workplace and juxtaposes his experience with, you know, what others might have experienced or what they did experience in comparison to what the reaction was to his behavior in the workplace. And I think it's so important that as we--particularly for folks who manage others--that as we function within corporate spaces that we understand what it means to hold space for others, what it means to be allies, what it means to manage others responsibly. And with that, I'm gonna let Liz and Noah take it away. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Please send any questions or comments our way. We would love to hear from you. Thank you for listening. This is Living Corporate.




Liz: Thanks for joining the podcast. I'm here today with Noah. Noah brings us an incredible story of survivorship. We've talked about how being labeled, being boxed in, and finding your place on the spectrum [?]--his story is so rich in terms of [it crosses?] race and gender and ethnicity that come together and create [an environment?] that is particularly challenging to navigate, and so I'm really happy for you to introduce yourself, please, to the group.




Noah: Awesome. Well, first of all it's an honor. Yeah, I'm excited to [?]--you know, I always forget that [?] others' experiences, because it's inevitably [?] every person out there. So yeah, thanks again for having me. My name is Noah. Full disclaimer: Liz and I met in [college.] We did go to Rice University together way back in the day, right? [both laugh] So I'm originally from--I was born to Mexican immigrants, born and raised in Houston. Obviously did university there at Rice, and yeah, I feel like I've lived three lifetimes [in the time that I've] been on this earth. Went from, you know, coming out as queer in college to eventually moving across the country. I'm now in [?], and I am in my late thirties. I started my medical transition just a few years ago. I consider myself a female-to-male transgender man, and yeah, I moved up [?] for graduate school, and yeah, I've had a whirlwind of an experience the last few years.




Liz: Yeah, "whirlwind" is probably the right [term]. [Over] your life you've had a diversity of career experiences. I mean, you're an educator as well as a scholar. You have--you know, you've done so many different things over the course of your career. How have you found that your expression of self has changed in terms of presentation across those different environments?




Noah: It really, really has changed over the years. Yeah, I began my professional life--during college, after, we're talking the mid-2000s, and I was at the time out as a lesbian, and when I was working in a certain job--I actually started my career in the corporate world, before I became an educator, and, you know, I was seen as a quote-unquote "butch lesbian." I [tend to] dress in more masculine clothing. That's how I've always felt comfortable. But also because of the way that I would be looked at by bosses and supervisors, you know? I felt very uncomfortable even just trying to dress and present as myself. When I began teaching middle school and high school, my presentation didn't change. I was also out at that time as genderqueer. I was very afraid of students and their parents Googling me and, you know, finding articles about my gender identity, gender queerness, and how that would impact me at work. I, you know, obviously wasn't at the point of, you know, wearing ties to my job, but, you know, [?] or khakis and a dress shirt--when a feminine person wears them versus when a person who isn't feminine wears them, you know, it really does change, you know, the way you carry yourself if you're looked at as the capital O "other." But I have medically transitioned. I'm pretty much cisgender-passing, and I'm currently looking for work--I feel like the way that I dress professionally, you wouldn't blink an eye at me, where it used to be this just huge, huge deal. And I have a really funny story about a temporary job I had right out of college. I was working for a software company, and--I was doing data entry and data analysis for the sales department, and I was pulled, you know, from my little cubicle and asked to speak to the manager for a moment, and he went into this really long spiel about my presentation, about dress code, and--he [used?] the feminine words. He was like, you know, "You're a very colorful person. You are very visible." I mean, these are quotes I will never forget, and then finally, at the end of that conversation, I said, "Well, sir, what would you like me to do?" And I was thinking to myself [?]. And he said, "Well, could you take that extra earring out?" I asked him, "What exactly do you want out of this?" You know, I had an extra earring back in my, you know, cartilage [?] part of the ear. So I took that out and said, "Okay, are we done here? Can I go back to work?" And he said okay. I think I just made him nervous about what it was really about, you know? So yeah, that's a very interesting question, because obviously I've been through this really [straining?] gamut of experiences just for wearing collared shirts and slacks to work.




Liz: And, you know, it seems like the most mundane thing, right? Putting on pants and a shirt to go to the office. 




Noah: Literally putting [?], yeah.




Liz: And it's so fraught for people in our community, and it's something I think about as well in terms of "How do I express my own identity?" I've always--you know, I've always identified as a woman. I've always identified femme [at center?], but certainly an aspect of my identity has been that I'm not high-femme. And it's so interesting to see how we navigate this impression management [?] and, in some senses, for ourselves. There was a period of time certainly, [?] in my early 20s, where I know that I was dressing for me because I was trying to--I was trying to do something to feel like I belonged, because instead I was spending a lot of energy fitting in, and it was not working for me.




Noah: Understandably, yeah.




Liz: So, you know, I find it really interesting that you now, as you say, you really pass a cisgender male, and if anyone were to pass you on the street they wouldn't give you the second glance. Because you do present certainly masculine [at center?] I'm curious, you know, as somebody who was--you know, had a genderqueer identity, somebody who has always had the ability to appreciate and revere the benefits of the feminine--not necessarily identify with the feminine, but certainly to embrace the feminine. Do you feel that you're in any way now boxed in by the way in which you're read, or have you achieved--




Noah: Interesting question. Yes, [?]--when I come out to people, you know, [?] the non-binary--I don't want to say the center, because that's--you know, outside the realm of, you know, the binary ones and zeroes. I do feel sometimes pigeon-holed as to, you know, what people expect of me. Do I [?], even in professional settings, to wear your typical masculine clothing? Of course, you know, but in my day-to-day life, you know, to be super restricted--not that I certainly want to wear, you know, hyper-feminine clothing earlier, but restricted as to what is masculine, what is feminine, you know, it brings to mind a lot of, you know, past experiences on what is acceptable of the feminine person to wear versus the masculine when you look at the same articles of clothing. And it's interesting that our conversation has already kind of developed over to just clothing, but, I mean, it's a very visible part of our community, and so it's a huge part of our expression. I'll give you another great firsthand example. When I was an educator, I one day went into the teacher's lounge to make some copies as, you know, we were often doing, and I was teaching summer school, and I was wearing, you know, simple khakis, collared shirt, and a pair of, you know, Converse sneakers. It was summertime and, you know, we weren't dressed as hyper-professionally as usually. I had noticed during the week that one of the female-identifying teachers was wearing a nice skirt and blouse with some matching Converse, which I thought was an adorable look, and that was no big deal. I wear, you know, a very similar outfit on the masculine end of the spectrum, and as I am making copies this day, the school director walks in, stands next to me, puts his hands in his pockets, looks down at my feet, and just stands